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 Is Power Phial really better than Element?

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DanielisAwesome52
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PostSubject: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:18 am

I keep reading guides on the Switch AXE and everyone says the Power Phial is way more superior to the Element Phial. They all cite the stats and numbers, but none of them state personal experience.

I use Elemental mostly, and I can take down Offline monsters very quickly (just started High Rank, almost to 4*) but when I switched to Power Phials I started losing and it took way longer to kill things than with Element.

Haven't like documented exact times or weapons, but my most recent was with the Volt Axe (R) and High Bolt Axe, both have same initial Attack, High Bolt has Higher initial Element, and Power Phial, while Volt has slightly lower Element but an Element Phial

I got almost totally beaten by Rathian (in most recent experience) while using High Bolt, but barely took damage when using Volt. It took til about 20 min left to beat her with High Bolt but only like 15-20 in with Volt

So is Power Phial really better than Element? I know that element is calculated by division or something, but does elemental itself do more/different damage than raw output? For me with other weapons like Lance and Great Sword it seems the elemental ones always do better than non elemental with higher attack.
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JFizzle
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:40 am

I've never used the SwAx man, but I can help you out a little bit here.

Elemental damage receives a very high reduction in the damage formula. It will rarely ever be what you think it will be.

When you crunch through the damage formula, always solve for raw and elemental separately, then you add the results after the final calculations. Also, a mistake that most people make when doing damage calcs, is to pick the hitzone with the least def. That is fine if that is the part that you will be hitting the most, but not so if otherwise. Always pick the parts that you know you will hit the most. That is a more accurate way to estimate your damage.

In regards to the P. Phial vs E. Phial, I'd be willing to bet that it is certain Mobs that it's stronger against, or the mthod in which you are using the weapon. I'm going to leave the final elemental discussion to someone who knows it alot better than I do, as most of the weps that I use/ techniques that I emloy do not require alot of thought in the realm of elemental damage.

I did see you mention the Great Sword . One rule with the GS, Element does not matter. Don't even consider it. The weapon is waaaay to slow for any element damage to matter. When choosing a GS, the only things needed to consider are Raw dmg and Sharpness. In fact the only 2 Great Sword that are worth a damn (in regards to damage output) in the whole game are the Anguish P and the High Sieglinde.

Hope that halps a little, man.
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DanielisAwesome52
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:53 am

One thing I noticed though with the Great Sword is although the huge raw damage from charged attacks is great, when I hit with an element the Monster is weak to it seems to do just a bit more, again I'm not super High rank so I'm just messing around with weapons right now, but My Ravager+ doesn't seem to do as well as my Lagia Blade or my Rath Firesword
Its ok if I'm going after multiple bosses not weak to the same thing, but against a single monster I seem to break things faster/more and make them reel back more often with the small elemental boost rather than straight strength

I'm currently doing some basic testing with my High Bolt and Volt Red Switch AXE against different monsters, no noticeable difference in Jaggi takedowns, but against Qurupeco the Power broke his flints easier and knocked him down more, although both were around same timeframe so it may have been my positioning

I guess I'm really wondering if the elemental does more than the formula would imply, especially if a monster is weak to it.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 10:58 am

numbers are just numbers, as far as personal experience goes:

"I got almost totally beaten by Rathian (in most recent experience) while using High Bolt, but barely took damage when using Volt. It took til about 20 min left to beat her with High Bolt but only like 15-20 in with Volt"

you don't go from "barely took damage" to "almost totally beaten" because of a few points of attack gained or lost, such a large performance inconsistence is certainly related to the player more than it is to the weapon (considering they are somewhat similar).

Also in a comparison like this it depends a lot on how much do you use the sword mode compared to axe mode.

Numbers say power phial > element phial but the difference isn't "huge", a skilled player can obtain similar results with the two options. Same goes for many debates like AuL > Ce3 and so on.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:03 am

With regards to the SWAX, I'm pretty sure it depends highly on your combo and your rate of attack. Element on the SWAX mostly comes into play with the elemental discharge 'finisher' ability, which puts a huge dent in your DPS if used (theoretically).

As far as I know, the overhead slash to a side slash repeatedly with a power phial gives the most damage on a switch axe. Elemental discharge does good damage but loses out to simply hacking at the thing a few more times, this may be what's causing your loss in damage, element phial probably does a lot more damage with this move than power phials. Obviously figure 8 combo is garbage as everyone knows, etc etc.

At the risk of being completely wrong, logically speaking it makes sense for the power phials to do more damage. The high end SWAXs still have a good chunk of element, and will still be doing element damage to the monster, if its weak to the element, even better. Then, when in sword mode and the phial kicks in, the mathematically superior raw damage comes in, still with all the elemental damage. As opposed to relying heavily on element in and out of sword mode.

Or something. I sorta lost track of what I was saying half way through. Even so, you can't really claim that the element phial is better based on a few hunts anyway. It could easily be a placebo effect, you are skeptical that the power phial is better, therefore you get knocked around a little more from silly positioning etc.

/idea toss.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:19 am

I been using them back and forth, and I have noticed it may have been a sort of placebo effect. and I'll admit using my performance as a basis was a bad idea, I was more concerned with the timeframe of my Rathian kills, but after a couple more hunts I'm realizing it was just my fault for the being beaten in that instance

I'm only noticing minor differences between them (which might just be variances in the monsters) but it seems the Power has been breaking harder (things you bounce at low sharpness from) things like peco's flints and rathian's wings, while the element seems to make them reel more. the reeling might just be where I hit, since I'm not documenting every blade strike's location.

The power Phial does seem to kill slightly faster than element, at least between High Bolt and Volt Red. And through these tests I've been using it nearly exclusively in sword mode, maybe getting one or two hits with the axe while switching or reloading

And the figure 8 move, has it improved in Portable 3rd/Ultimate? I think I read that you can cancel it by rolling, and I figured with a Dash Juice it might be OK if the monsters KOed or knocked over
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 5:31 pm

Its not really a question of stamina usage, its just a question of 'holy damn this is a useless move.'

It roots you in place, and does less damage than you would normally be doing. It also interrupts others who are trying to strike the monster, and since it takes a lot of space, you'll likely do so.

IMO, any interrupting skill is bad and shouldn't be used if at all possible. Of course, you might not be able to avoid them. (Hammer and maybe GS for example)
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DanielisAwesome52
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:52 pm

Ah I know I end up using it, just because I tend to button mash and get caught after combos, though I am looking forward to being able to cancel, that's when I get hit alot
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 6:58 pm

Yeah I remember a similar thing happening to me when I briefly played SWAX. IIRC you can only roll out of it after two cycles of the figure 8. Don't hold me to that though.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:09 pm

I ONLY USE AXE MODE BEACAUSE IM LEGIT!
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:34 pm

It's funny how online 8 out of 10 people tend to bring versus Jho SWAX with dragon element and Element (mainly Black Harvest). Great Inceadeus with Power and water element outdamages it in every possible way. But it's not the end of it. It works better even on Lagi than any other SWAX including the choice of 9 out of 10 people on this monster - Flame Tempest. Great Inceadeus outshines it, but no one seems to notice it. Power is superior to element, just stick to sword mode.

As far as GS is concerned element could make a difference if there were at least few elemental GS'es with raw and purple sharpness level equal to Anguish. If monster is weak to ice, GS with ice element and raw 1000 will work better than GS with dragon element and 1000 raw or non elemental GS with 1000 raw. Will you agree? But it's just hypothetical thinking. Element does metter even on GS, that's why Diablos Hornsword is just a pice of cr*p even though it got more raw than High Sieglinde. Also reffering to my expierience with GS - Alatreon Revolution works better than Anguish on some larger monsters which take some time to take down. Anguish may have more raw, but it's purple sharpness level is a joke compared to Revolution's. You'll lose time looking for opening to sharpen your blade while with Revo you can inflict more cuts in that period of time. You don't have to agree with me on that. Try yourself and compare results.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:56 pm

Regarding which swax is best on specific monsters:
Spoiler:
 



Back to the original question. Most swaxes have significantly higher raw attack power than elemental attack power, so the boost from the power phial is larger than the boost from the elemental phial. That's why power phials usually outdamage elemental phials.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:29 am

@quidam wrote:

"I got almost totally beaten by Rathian (in most recent experience) while using High Bolt, but barely took damage when using Volt. It took til about 20 min left to beat her with High Bolt but only like 15-20 in with Volt"

you don't go from "barely took damage" to "almost totally beaten" because of a few points of attack gained or lost, such a large performance inconsistence is certainly related to the player more than it is to the weapon (considering they are somewhat similar).

THIS.

When it comes to efficiency in MH, the only thing that doesn't have a margin of error is straight number crunching. Even though the wyvern is identical, its timing, attacks, areas traversed, etc. can all vary from one hunt to the next. Another variable is human variance, you will not be identical each hunt.

So when we discuss which weapon is better, it's at an invariable constant. It has the theoretical potential to do more damage.

I'll still use this paradigm when choosing weapons and armor, but also keep in mind which skills and weapons fit my playing style. A great example of this is my reliance on focus. I predominately fight with sword mode, I feel comfortable with it, more maneuverable(though technically it isn't, again player's preference) and I feel I can execute the attacks more efficiently than in axe mode. So naturally focus will allow me to operate in sword mode more often, which also means I'm relying on my phials more. Therefore, I'll opt for a power phial for the theoretical increase in dmg. /yes/
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:44 am

@Ataraxia wrote:

As far as I know, the overhead slash to a side slash repeatedly with a power phial gives the most damage on a switch axe.
I don't think it is.
I find the rising slash and overhead combo to be both in faster execution and stronger in damage than overhead and side slash.

I find the side slash exlusively for quick swap to axe mode when your sword mode is nearly depleted.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 12:50 am

@TKMT wrote:
@Ataraxia wrote:

As far as I know, the overhead slash to a side slash repeatedly with a power phial gives the most damage on a switch axe.
I don't think it is.
I find the rising slash and overhead combo to be both in faster execution and stronger in damage than overhead and side slash.

I find the side slash exlusively for quick swap to axe mode when your sword mode is nearly depleted.


I agree, the damage difference is small but it's still more damage.

rising = 30%
side = 22%
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 2:44 am

@Antari18 wrote:
Spoiler:
 

I agree with this. Well put.

Except for the part about the Ala Rev. I never have a hard time finding a window to sharpen. And if you're using this wep properly (Only using L3 Charges followed by the slap, if time permits), you will rarely have to sharpen anyways.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:44 am

@JFizzle wrote:

Except for the part about the Ala Rev. I never have a hard time finding a window to sharpen. And if you're using this wep properly (Only using L3 Charges followed by the slap, if time permits), you will rarely have to sharpen anyways.

It all depends on situation and individual playstyle. When I'm facing Jhen+ and trying to break tusks on it's back, Anguish purple sharpness wents off after few lv3 charges. So naturally I have to sharpen it's edge and lose some time in the process. And as we know on this particular quest time is everything. Sometimes i end up not breaking all of it's tusks. With Revo supported by focus i can land more charges and easily break it's tusks. Same goes with Jhen+ legs.

But Revo is just my personal preference on Ala and Jhen+. It can be placebo. I think i'm just a lazyas* who don't wanna worry about sharpness level and just push forward. Also with my charms i can add to Revo set AuS (1 sloted Anguish doesn't allow me to do that...) to make up a little for difference in raw.

Edit. Also reffering to the Flame Tempest on Lagi. I'm not sure if the dmg result is the same as with Great Inceadeus, but you forgot to add one thing - it got slightly more raw than F.T. Keep in mind tat we're talking about using water SWAX on Lagi. The result is equal or near equal to supereffective fire SWAX.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Mon Dec 10, 2012 11:39 pm

@Antari18 wrote:

Edit. Also reffering to the Flame Tempest on Lagi. I'm not sure if the dmg result is the same as with Great Inceadeus, but you forgot to add one thing - it got slightly more raw than F.T. Keep in mind tat we're talking about using water SWAX on Lagi. The result is equal or near equal to supereffective fire SWAX.

Nope, didn't forget it.

The difference in raw attack is about 3-4 points of damage on Lagi.
The fire element adds between 6 and 12 points of damage.

Last time I checked, 6>4. And 12>>4. Not near equal. F.T. outdamages G.I. anywhere from 5% to 23% on body break regions. This is one of the few situations where another Swax outshines the G.I. And I mean very few: I love the G.I. It was priority #1 when I hit HR51. I use it in most situations where I want to swax. But I won't use it on Bari, Lagi, or Jho. That's it.

I won't ever recommend to a hunter online to switch away from G.I. It's always a good choice. But it's not always the highest damage potential choice, especially if you know where to hit for the most damage. Just saying.


Back on topic:

In end game discussions, Power Phial almost always outdamages Elemental Phials. But until end game, Elemental phials hold up pretty well. Don't get blinded by Power>Elemental - until you have all the end game Swaxes, take into consideration raw damage, elemental damage, and sharpness, and also what you're trying to accomplish.

Online, in many hunts, the swax is a break specialist. Decent maneuverability and great reach makes the swaxer the designated tail cutter and body breaker. While the hammerer goes for the head, and GS goes for the weak spot, the swaxer can move along the monster, breaking parts to maximize the rewards. A lot of parts resist cutting damage (Blos horns comes to mind), so using elementals aren't a bad thing when going for breaks.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 12:37 am

Im pretty sure Alatreon revolution out damages all other GS' on rath, ian and ura's head.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:13 am

@Antari18 wrote:
It all depends on situation and individual playstyle. When I'm facing Jhen+ and trying to break tusks on it's back, Anguish purple sharpness wents off after few lv3 charges. So naturally I have to sharpen it's edge and lose some time in the process. And as we know on this particular quest time is everything. Sometimes i end up not breaking all of it's tusks. With Revo supported by focus i can land more charges and easily break it's tusks. Same goes with Jhen+ legs.
I don't ever attack Jhen's tusks. All it usually takes is four ballista men and 2 antidragon bombs to take out both tusks(ballista spamming Jhen's left tusk and then softening the right with antidragon bombs, then finish the right one with more ballista. This usually destroys the tusks in the time available.).

@Antari18 wrote:
Edit. Also reffering to the Flame Tempest on Lagi. I'm not sure if the dmg result is the same as with Great Inceadeus, but you forgot to add one thing - it got slightly more raw than F.T. Keep in mind tat we're talking about using water SWAX on Lagi. The result is equal or near equal to supereffective fire SWAX.
You're right. Great Inceadus comes close/on par with Flame tempest on Lagiacrus. That Switch axe is no joke.
But that's only when it's at white sharpness. The moments when Great Inceadus outshines Flame Tempest on Lagiacrus is when Flame Tempest isn't hitting with affinity, which is 80% of the time, and when Great Inceadus is at white as well.

When affinity strikes, the Flame tempest outshines, matches, and/or comes close(it all depends where you're striking at on Lagiacrus) to Great Inceadus at white sharpness on Lagiacrus. It's amazing how well Great Inceadus can do on Lagiacrus imo, but that 330 fire on Flame Tempest added with those natural affinity strikes makes it stand its ground against Great Inceadus.

When Great Inceadus is at blue sharpness, the Flame Tempest is your best bet on Lagiacrus. White won't last a long time with Inceadus, and Flame Tempest has a lot of blue to boot.


Now if you excuse me, I'm gonna use Great Inceadus on my next Lagiacrus hunt. XD
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 3:08 am

TKMT:
 
^This^. Leave the tusks for the ballistas. I always go for the Back Holes () and the leg in the first phase, until he jumps the ship. Then I'll lay a couple into the horns after he rams, until he is able to be boarded again. Attacking the back holes is a better choice, also, because it is a weaker hitzone than the horns. And when it comes down to it, the horns aren't terribly hard to break anyways (As long as everyone knows what they are doing).

Some of it does come down to preference, but strike for strike, on congruent sets, Anguish P will always Outdamage Ala Rev.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:26 am

For me I have my own set of rules I side to;

Look for Element/Status on SnS.
Raw & Element on Lances, Longswords and Hammers.
Raw on Greatswords and Switch-axes.

Of course extra element on a GS or SA doesn't hurt when using it on an enemy with the weakness, but don't stress too much if the enemy doesn't take much elemental damage from the weapon, the raw will easily be enough to take it down regardless.

For examples, If I'm gonna fight a lagiacrus, I'm never gonna take an electric SnS, and find a fire one.
With a Longsword I would use an electric one if i had to, but would ideally make a fire one.
However with a GS, I would use an electric one without a second thought if i didn't already have a fire GS.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 8:53 am

@TKMT wrote:
@Antari18 wrote:
It all depends on situation and individual playstyle. When I'm facing Jhen+ and trying to break tusks on it's back, Anguish purple sharpness wents off after few lv3 charges. So naturally I have to sharpen it's edge and lose some time in the process. And as we know on this particular quest time is everything. Sometimes i end up not breaking all of it's tusks. With Revo supported by focus i can land more charges and easily break it's tusks. Same goes with Jhen+ legs.
I don't ever attack Jhen's tusks. All it usually takes is four ballista men and 2 antidragon bombs to take out both tusks(ballista spamming Jhen's left tusk and then softening the right with antidragon bombs, then finish the right one with more ballista. This usually destroys the tusks in the time available.).

Well by "tusks" i mean "back holes" on jhen+ body. I guess I express it too softly. Tusks = horns yes, balista and bomb all the way. But when it comes to holes it's recomended to focus on it since it's one of Jhen's weakspots.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:00 pm

@Antari18 wrote:
Well by "tusks" i mean "back holes" on jhen+ body. I guess I express it too softly.
Tusks is a weird name for back lol
@Antari18 wrote:
Tusks = horns yes, balista and bomb all the way.
Pssh, those aren't horns, those are tusks. :P
@Antari18 wrote:
But when it comes to holes it's recomended to focus on it since it's one of Jhen's weakspots.
Yeah, it is. Attacking that area can make an early showdown(being the only guy still attacking the back makes an early repel for me when everyone has decent damaging weapons... on low jhen. I'm certain 2-3 people GS Charging the back with Anguish P/Ala Revolution would trigger an early final showdown on high jhen with the same conditions met).
GS does wonders on his "tusks" :3
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:04 pm

Back to the topic:

What is better in your opinion on Jho and general - Thunderstrike (P) or Megavolt Axe (P). I always use G.I. but after reading conversation above I feel like trying thunder SWAX on Jho.
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PostSubject: Re: Is Power Phial really better than Element?   Today at 1:24 pm

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