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 Abyssal Lag

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MHAEL
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PostSubject: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:37 pm

I am a Blademaster and I am currently HR 50ish. I am looking forward to fighting Abyssal lag at HR70, however, I took a peek at groups in the lobby and most say, "Gunner only." I did research and it seems that there is a bug that allows gunners to only contend with the thunder from Lag and none of his physical attacks by hiding between rocks and they can speed run abyssal lag.

Is this guy even feasible with blademaster groups?

Should I make a gunner set and brush up on my gunner skills in the next 20HR levels.
If so - what gunner set should I get for abyssal lag?

Thanks!!

M'Hael
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Antari18
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:50 pm

Miralis bow + silver los armor = profit.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 2:18 pm

Every monster is doable with melee weaponry; people just look for the quickest/easiest possible way of doing things. If this is you, then yeah absolutely go for it and make some gunner sets. If you're not bothered either way, I'd suggest just to keep looking for people who don't mind what set you take.

As for sets you should use, I'm afraid I'm of no help there X_X
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:24 pm

I'd say just take whatever you'd take for regular or Ivory Lagiacrus, only maybe swap out the weapon with something with dragon element instead of fire (Abyssal IS weakest to dragon, right?). When I fought him, I didn't really change how I approached the fight much at all. The only thing you have to watch out for is his vortex attack.
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:26 pm

Fukkkkk the glitch. Even with a retarded team of blademasters as long as they use 3 upgraded miralis weap and I use miralis lbg we break everything and kill lagi in sub 5min easy.

Glitch is inefficient and slow (lol at kelbi bow). Even with just 4 blademasters it takes 8-10min which is still better than the glitch abusers.

Tl:dr if you suck and/or use kelbi bow go to a glitch room. If not stay away
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Ares
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:45 pm

Yeah, I've done both methods before, ny World's Demise GL out damages a Kelbi bow hands down.
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Chagrilled
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:31 pm

@haruno wrote:
Fukkkkk the glitch. Even with a retarded team of blademasters as long as they use 3 upgraded miralis weap

why fire element and not dragon, or is that just part of the bad team example?
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 6:35 pm

@Chagrilled wrote:
@haruno wrote:
Fukkkkk the glitch. Even with a retarded team of blademasters as long as they use 3 upgraded miralis weap

why fire element and not dragon, or is that just part of the bad team example?
stygian weaps blow and alatreon weapons aren't out yet
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MHAEL
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 7:28 pm

Ok sounds good! I appreciate it - because I love being a blademaster and I don't want to make gunner stuff.

I only made gunner stuff for World Eater and event quest Alat in Tri... it's meh to me.

I have full upgraded dire miralis switch Axe, and a Ceeded Axe... and a full upgraded brach SA, and I just need Abyss lag to get the fully upgraded lag SA - so I'll be set.

(as you can tell I am a SA user... and hammerer occasionally.)

Any suggestions on armor? Right now i am using helios which is -10 thunder. I farmed Jhen last night because I hear that is a good way to get a thunder set for lag's.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:22 pm

The Great Sword is very good for this quest

Stgyian Acadia has high raw and high dragon with high purple sharpness in conjunction with sharpness+1. Armor resistances don't matter much. They hardly have an effect even with something like -30 lightning or -25 dragon.

Anything with HGE, sharpness+1, and evasion+1 with Ceadeed axe is good enough.
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Antari18
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:28 pm

@Sai_ wrote:
The Great Sword is very good for this quest

Stgyian Acadia has high raw and high dragon with high purple sharpness in conjunction with sharpness+1. Armor resistances don't matter much. They hardly have an effect even with something like -30 lightning or -25 dragon.

Anything with HGE, sharpness+1, and evasion+1 with Ceadeed axe is good enough.

Isn't it better to use S. Zin swax here rather than Ceadeed? It's pretty good, i was taking down G rank Jho in like 12 minutes solo?
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:06 pm

Element on a switch axe is so tiny it doesn't matter. It's best to use the highest raw swaxe. Ceadeed swaxe has the highest raw, combined with the power phial, makes it the best switch axe in the game. Power phial gives a 1.25x bonus, which comparable to getting a critical hit on every attack in sword mode with that swaxe. Remember to use vertical slashes (pressing x button)
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:17 pm

@Sai_ wrote:
Element on a switch axe is so tiny it doesn't matter. It's best to use the highest raw swaxe. Ceadeed swaxe has the highest raw, combined with the power phial, makes it the best switch axe in the game. Power phial gives a 1.25x bonus, which comparable to getting a critical hit on every attack in sword mode with that swaxe. Remember to use vertical slashes (pressing x button)
element does matter herpderp
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:43 pm

How so? Unless the switch axe gets some enormous elemental boost
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:47 pm

@Sai_ wrote:
How so? Unless the switch axe gets some enormous elemental boost
Element matters on every weapon. Despite your belief.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 9:16 am

@MHAEL wrote:
I am a Blademaster and I am currently HR 50ish. I am looking forward to fighting Abyssal lag at HR70, however, I took a peek at groups in the lobby and most say, "Gunner only." I did research and it seems that there is a bug that allows gunners to only contend with the thunder from Lag and none of his physical attacks by hiding between rocks and they can speed run abyssal lag.

Is this guy even feasible with blademaster groups?

Should I make a gunner set and brush up on my gunner skills in the next 20HR levels.
If so - what gunner set should I get for abyssal lag?

Thanks!!

M'Hael


i rarley see "only gun" Abby Lagi rooms, i only killed him with Blademasters and killed him in about 10mins with horn/tail break.
Just search for Rooms , first parameters is "All" , second is "Abyssal Lagiacrus" and then look for the open Rooms join them and ask for horn break and farming . :D
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Sephastus
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:14 am

@haruno wrote:
@Sai_ wrote:
How so? Unless the switch axe gets some enormous elemental boost
Element matters on every weapon. Despite your belief.

Forgive me for disagreeing. If you have a choice between a higher raw, or higher element, Most of the time, the higher raw will win.

Weakness wise, only 1 monster has a 40% weakness to any element, and that is the Great Baggi, to it's head. About 4 monsters have elemental weaknesses at 35% to a certain body part, and those are the Los, and Ian, to the head, the Duramboros to the hump, and Peco to the face, and only at low rank. Every single other monster and body part has 30% vulnerability or lower, and the mean is around 20% max weakness. Those same body parts hover around 40% mean.

What this means, is that for most weapons, you will benefit much more from Raw, than from elemental, at a rate of 2 to 1. A 1000 raw weapon will do more damage than a 800 raw weapon with 400 elemental.

I saw for most weapons, because of fast attack weapons like dual swords, with higher elemental damage than raw, Elemental is KEY to its damage output. Elemental damage doesn't have a %damage based on what type of hit you are doing. It always applies the same amount of elemental damage reguardless of hit, which means, the faster you hit, the more damage you are doing. Couple this with the Elemental+ damage from Fire Attak up and such, and their damage output is staggering. But that is definately not the case in switch axes.

While each hit in a demon mode dual blade does about 12% damage raw, Switchaxes are doing 35-54% damage. This means that for a monster part that is 45%raw/20%elemental, you will benefit much more from 50 additional raw instead of 100 element.

tl;dr - Unless you are a dual sword user, raw beats elemental.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 11:20 am

Thanks for the help. I'll use my Ceeded Axe and my gear is helios z withx coil and im gemmed for:
HG earplugs
Sharpness +1
Evasion +1
water attack +1 (perfect for Ceeded axe)
Critical Eye +1

I just need to go farm more Tru Armor Spheres because it seems I can never get them even in HR8 quests. I need to fully upgrade and i'll be ready.

And like the other poster said - just get Thundercaller in food before I go and I should be fine.

Thanks for all the advice.
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:28 pm

@Sephastus wrote:
@haruno wrote:
@Sai_ wrote:
How so? Unless the switch axe gets some enormous elemental boost
Element matters on every weapon. Despite your belief.

Forgive me for disagreeing. If you have a choice between a higher raw, or higher element, Most of the time, the higher raw will win.

Weakness wise, only 1 monster has a 40% weakness to any element, and that is the Great Baggi, to it's head. About 4 monsters have elemental weaknesses at 35% to a certain body part, and those are the Los, and Ian, to the head, the Duramboros to the hump, and Peco to the face, and only at low rank. Every single other monster and body part has 30% vulnerability or lower, and the mean is around 20% max weakness. Those same body parts hover around 40% mean.

What this means, is that for most weapons, you will benefit much more from Raw, than from elemental, at a rate of 2 to 1. A 1000 raw weapon will do more damage than a 800 raw weapon with 400 elemental.

I saw for most weapons, because of fast attack weapons like dual swords, with higher elemental damage than raw, Elemental is KEY to its damage output. Elemental damage doesn't have a %damage based on what type of hit you are doing. It always applies the same amount of elemental damage reguardless of hit, which means, the faster you hit, the more damage you are doing. Couple this with the Elemental+ damage from Fire Attak up and such, and their damage output is staggering. But that is definately not the case in switch axes.

While each hit in a demon mode dual blade does about 12% damage raw, Switchaxes are doing 35-54% damage. This means that for a monster part that is 45%raw/20%elemental, you will benefit much more from 50 additional raw instead of 100 element.

tl;dr - Unless you are a dual sword user, raw beats elemental.
50 raw with a bad element vs 300 element that is the opposing monsters weakness........ Obviously element wins out and you have no idea what you're saying. For all weapons element matters alot. But you have no idea how damage formula works so don't see why I would post further.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:56 pm

@Sephastus wrote:
tl;dr - Unless you are a dual sword user, raw beats elemental.

What about GS and elemental buff? I think we analized few cases with that. It's not always RAW > element.
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 12:59 pm

@Antari18 wrote:
@Sephastus wrote:
tl;dr - Unless you are a dual sword user, raw beats elemental.

What about GS and elemental buff? I think we analized few cases with that. It's not always RAW > element.
It is never raw > element hence why jho weaps suck so bad.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:11 pm

lol, I reviewed your post history before I posted what I said. If you review my post history you will see I know what I am talking about. I don't want to post numbers to not seem like an elitist pig, but if you want I can post the numbers until you are satisfied.

You should note that I said there is a 2 to 1 corrolation when it comes to raw damage vs elemental damage, and if you have 50 raw vs 300 element (a 6 to 1 ratio) then the chances are higher that the elemental weapon, specially if the monster has a high weakness (30%) to that element. 300 elemental vs a monster that is weak to that element is roughly equal to 150 raw damage. All other things being equal, elemental damage will probably win out on this very specific case.

Again, I suggest you review my post history and check out the numbers I posted under another thread. Doing the footwork and checking out monster weaknesses, elemental modifiers, weapon attack rates as well as percentages and modifiers is more than I would like to do for someone that doesn't respect another posters work. I don't speak out my ASS. Not implying that you do, just making a statement.

Edit: Found my post.

@Sephastus wrote:
@Antari18 wrote:
@E&Troy: Just abuse balista. Also what attack exacly OHKO you? Fire ball or what? This seems bizarre.

@Sephastus wrote:
Of course, there are many different things to concider. For example, if both weapons do not have enough sharpness, and bounce alot (75% penalty to raw damage), then go straight for the elemental weapons, specially if you can get ESP (prevents your weapon from bouncing off, but still applies the damage penalty). In addition, if you are a GS user who is proficient at doing the level 3 charge, then a good elemental weapon will outdo a modest raw weapon every time, due to the 300% damage increase to whatever elemental damage the weapon has.

Can you tell us more about this Sephastus? I was asking about that earlier in different topic but no one answered.

Say we have:

Plesioth GS with 1248 RAW, 450 water, purple sharpness after S+1

vs

Simoon Sandbiter (S. Barioth GS) with 1152 RAW, 700 water, purple sharpness after S+1. Of course it requires Awaken, but considering that this skill is active.

What will do more dmg to monster weak to water/certain part etc.?

Guess this is as good a time as any to bring in the math:

Damage formula: (ATP x TYPE x SHARP x HITZONE / CLASS)
+ (ELEMENT x SHARP x ELMZONE / 10) x MODIFIER = DAMAGE

Entering your data, and asuming we are doing a lvl 3 charge on Baleful Giginox's head (really weak to water):

Plesioth GS: ((1248 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 0.45) /4.8 ) + ((450 x 1.2 x 0.30) / 10) x 3 = 193 (raw) + 48 (elemental) = 251 total damage (Truly a badass hit!)

Simoon Sandbiter: ((1152 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 0.45) / 4.8 ) + ((700 x 1.2 x 0.30) / 10) x3 = 178 + 75 = 253 (A bigger hit!)

The Simoon Sanbiter is doing more damage... but not by alot.

If we change targets though... and lets say we go for a level 3 shot to the Silver Rathalos' head:

Plessy GS: ((1248 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 0.12) / 4.8 ) + (450 x 1.2 x 0.30) / 10) x 3 = 51 + 48 = 99

Simoon Sanbiter: ((1152 x 1.1 x 1.5 x 0.12) / 4.8 ) + ((700 x 1.2 x 0.30) / 10) x 3 = 47 + 75 = 122

In this case, the high elemental weapon was about 25% better than the lower elemental, but higher raw weapon. This would be a huge deal... if it wasn't that the rathalos head is strong against raw damage. His back and wings are what have to be targeted, and to get to them, you need to bring him down by either flashing him in the air, tripping him, or setting a pitfall trap. All which are strategies used against him, and in which we get similar numbers to what we have in the first example.

These were very extreme examples, and in most fights, the raw damage will win out as king, since the elemental weaknesses will not be as high as 30%.

For your very specific example, in which a monster's body part is .45 or lower and elemental is .30 or higher, the Simoon sandbiter will win out in damage, but usually not by a big margin. In any case where we have .50 or higher raw weakness, the Plessy GS will win.

What should we learn from all this? That "which weapon is better" is extremely subjective, and if 2 weapons are so closely matched that you can't make up your mind, usually either will do the job just fine.

Note in this example that one weapon has 250 more elemental damage than the other one, which has a little less than 100 more raw. The 250 more element weapon BARELY eeks a little more damage than the raw because, like I said before, raw vs element is a 2 vs 1 battle, and on top of this, the GS has a 3x modifier when doing a level 3 charge, which other weapons do not. You need more than 2 elemental damage to an element that a monster is weak against vs raw just to break even. Only in the case where the monster has a higher weakness to elemental vs raw, like a silver rathalos' head, does the element make a difference. Or, like I mentioned before, if you are using Dual Blades, since each attack applies exactly the same elemental damage regardless of how weak the regular attack is.

Meh... take what you want out of this conversation. It will only help you if you want it to. I am sure those who really want to learn will see the benefit of what those of us who know what we are talking about are saying.

Also, Jho weapons suck because of their sharpness (blue), not because of their raw damage.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:14 pm

In Tri Jho hammer/GS > Ala GS/Hammer k, thx bye.


Last edited by Antari18 on Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:16 pm

Why the hell are you comparing a water gs to a raw gs on los?........................ That makes no sense whatsoever. And you don't know what you're talking about.

400 drag ds vs 400 drag lance.
A single hit from a ds and a single hit from a lance will do diff damage which you seem to be unaware of.
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PostSubject: Re: Abyssal Lag   Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:24 pm

Doesn't Lucent Narga Swaxe have the best raw?
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