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 Artillery skill worth it?

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Antari18
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PostSubject: Artillery skill worth it?   Mon May 27, 2013 2:12 pm

Well i have some mix impressions. I'm gunlance noob, just to make it clear.

For -Wide- type of gunlance it's recommended to invest in Artillery Expert to max the dmg dealt by shells. That's what i learnt past days.

For -Long and Normal- is Artillery skills worth it? I heard a lot of opinions that it's better go for AuL or Critical Eye+3, Chalenger+2, Honed Blade etc. I don't quite understand it because with -normal- you still shot it with your combos and with -Long- it affect WF cooldown time, so what's the deal with ppl dropping this skill from their sets? I need gunlance expert opinion on that.

I found out that Zvolta Demolisher (Brachydions slime GL) is -Long- type so investing in Artillery Expert is just a waste of opportunity?

I made set to use with my Progenesis (wide type GL) with Artillery Expert, Sharpness+1, Awaken and Bombardier only because for some reason i like to use Artillery skill and shot in the middle of the chain.

inb4 posting overused nether honed blade set.

tl:dr: Artillery skill - what type of gunlance is worth using it?
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Mon May 27, 2013 4:44 pm

Normal type damage from full burst is absolutely AWFUL no matter how you look at it.

As a normal 5 gunlance your shot values are
normal shell : 24 dam, 8 fire
Charged shell 26 dam, 9 fire
wyv fire: 50 x4 dam, 14x4 fire
full burst: 120 dam, 40 fire

With artillery expert it becomes
normal shell: 28 dam, 9 fire
charged shell: 34 dam, 10 fire
full burst: 144dam, 45 fire
wyv fire's damage is unaffected by art expert but it's cooldown time is so as far as dam is concerned that's irrelevant.

They sound like decent numbers right? Now in comparison
Long 5 gunlance
Normal shell: 36 dam, 18 fire
charged shell: 43 dam, 21 fire
full burst: 108 dam, 54 fire
wyvren fire: in all honesty I have no clue how much being a long type affects wyv fire damage. so mehs

with artillery expert it becomes
normal shell: 43 dam, 21 fire
charged shell: 51 dam, 25 fire
full burst: 109 dam, 74 fire

now we bring out the end all type which is wide level 5
normal shell: 48dam, 12fire
charged shell: 69dam, 17fire
wyv fire: 50 x4 dam, 14x4 fire
full burst: 76.8 dam, 19fire

with artillery expert this becomes
normal shell: 57dam, 14fire
charged shell: 82dam, 20fire
full burst: 91.2dam, 22fire

as you can see normal gunlances are absolutely pitiful damage wise. 2 charged shell with art expert from a wide5 gunlance outdamages a art expert full burst from normal 5 with just pure dam alone. This is disregarding wide shellings fire dam. Not to mention normal comes at a massive sharpness loss due to more shell usage (1 shell = 2 sharpness). Long gunlances I can't come to a fair judgment for without knowing the exact numbers it boosts wyv fire by but just eyeballing it, it also comes really close to outdamaging normals full burst with it's own and it doesn't cost anywhere near as much with it's full burst. All in all

wide > long > normal
normal sux
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Roik
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Mon May 27, 2013 6:04 pm

haruno's wrong. Artillery Expert DOES affect WyvernFire damage. It increases by 20%, just like regular shells. That combined with the cooldown is quite a difference.

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Antari18
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Mon May 27, 2013 6:29 pm

Wow that's a lot of info! Thanks Haruno! Really helpfull Yes by vort

So basically what i understand is that with normal type gunlance i should focus on stabs rather than shells and full burst. In terms of skills i should drop Art. Expert for AuL, Crit Eye+3 etc. because the dmg increase from it is really pathetic. There are two normal type GL i wanna use Rheo Agnacorso and Shining Ishtar so i just focus on Honed Blade, Guard+1, Evade+ etc.

But what i understand art. expert on Long type gunlance is still viable option.
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Martoboyo
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Mon May 27, 2013 7:49 pm

Artillery Expert is always a good skill for GL. It's still a damage increase after all. Question imo is not what shelling you are using, but what your style is with them. I shell a lot, with every kind of shelling. With Normal I use the 5-shot discharge more often, with Wide I use a lot of Charged Shots and with Long I use a mixture of both styles. I always try to get Artillery Expert on my Gunlance Sets, if only to power up my WyvernFires.

If you ask me, if Artillery Expert is not worth it for a Gunlancer, you might consider switching over to a Lance. But that's my opinion, and I'll admit, I'm a huge fan of Shelling (can't even count all the Rathalos I dropped out of the sky with a well placed Shell).
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evahnulahm
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Tue May 28, 2013 11:02 am

Normal shot may suck in some peoples opinion but I still love the Barons Blazon.
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Hawkfriend
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Thu Jun 06, 2013 8:48 am

IMO Haruno would be correct if you could get a monster perfectly still forever and you had infinite ammo (meaning no reload).

unfortunately, neither of these things *really* happen. The normal shot burst is still good as *burst* damage. kind of like greatsword (though not near that much damage). you want to time it to hit and deal massive damage one ONE HIT, preferably on a weakspot (like I said, much like greatsword).

look at it this way. full slam takes a similar amount of time to double charge shell. (wide charge requires shield and one move before charging, then the actual charge time X2; Full burst requires three moves, but no charge; both moves completely empty clip). say I can tell by Rathalos's (random off the top of my head) body language that he is going to tail spin and put his head nearby. I time an overhead swing, and release the full burst in his face. or say I am using wide shells and I want to use charge shots. I time it and the first one hits him in the head. to use the second one I have to wait for the charge time and he has already moved, so the blast hits his wing instead, dealing significantly less damage.

but that is using only one attack type for each weapon. I personally prefer long shells because it has a nice balance between clip size and damage, making it good for combos.

--before a reload (taking "optimal" attacks per shell type IMO):

with wide charges you get:
1x upward stab + 2x charge shell
with long combos you can get:
8x regular stab + 3 regular shells + 1x Upswing
with normal bursts you get:
2x regular stab + 1x overhead swing + 1x full burst


--for basic combo on all three (just taking raw into it)(raw in parentheses is weapon raw):
wide: 6x stab + 2x shell + upswing = 6(.24)(raw) + 2(57) + (~.3)(raw) = 1.74(raw) + 114
long: 8x stab + 3x shell + upswing = 8(.24)(raw) + 3(43) + (~.3)(raw) = 2.22(raw) + 129
normal: 12x stab + 5x shell + upswing = 12(.24)(raw) + 5(28) + (~.3)(raw) = 3.18 + 140
((^Very crude damage formula))
then to divide by number of attacks (including reload because it takes time):
wide: .193(raw) + 12.67
long: .17(raw) + 9.9
normal: .167(raw) + 7.36
((^also very crude because different attacks take different amounts of time))

so you can see here that wide is very powerful overall, it just requires more reloading.
long reaches farther, and the wyvern fire gets 1.2 damage (I think its that much).
normal does good burst damage (and a multiplier on that burst btw), and has a large clip size for less reloading and longer combos.

In the end, its really all about the way you play. As dcj is constantly reminding us, you can make up for low damage weapons, you can't make up for ugly ones.



I'm tired, so a lot of this logic might not connect, and I may have left stuff out. I'm not even going to hope that any of this makes grammatical sense. That being said, I hope you get the picture. the three shell types are good for different things, so you should pick a GL based on which of those styles you want + the element + the raw/sharpness.

have a nice day.
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evahnulahm
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:28 am

Excellent point Hawkfriend, and i cant agree more. If you are all about black and white or min/max then Haruno is most likely dead right, but I think it can make people ignore decent weapons because they arent "the Best".

I think the real question should be is artillery king worth it versus say another skill. Thats what you have to ask yourself and it most likely depends on your play style.
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Antari18
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:59 am

You can't base on wide type GL entirely. Water element Normal GL is pretty good and there's no good wide type water in game. Snarf GL has only access to white sharpness and is lacking in raw. Plesioth long GL is also very good. Other than that i think each element have reasonably good wide type. Personally i love wide type playstyle.

Also even though Hawkfriend post is nice and stuff, it didn't correspond to the topic question. Still dunno if Artillery Expert is worth having on normal and long. On wide it's really important i guess.
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Hawkfriend
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:40 pm

IMO Artillery expert is a great skill to have on any shell type. not only is it a damage boost, but it makes the cooldown on wyvern fire a decent bit shorter (its actually enough to notice and make a significant difference). it is extra good on long (again IMO) because long get bonus damage on wyvern fire, and artillery will make you wyvern fire a lot more often. from my personal experience, artillery has cut a good 1/3 off the time it takes to kill most things.

another thing to keep in mind is that shells don't "bounce", and I want to say they "ignore" defense (but don't quote me on that one). this makes it ridiculously easy to get breaks. wyvern fire to the face a couple of times usually gets you close to a face break.
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Thu Jun 06, 2013 11:04 pm

Shells do ignore defence. I broke Ivory Lagiacrus' horns in about 3 or 4 charged shells. Diablos' horns break very easily too.
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Fri Jun 07, 2013 12:36 am

I'm going to assume hawkeye doesn't know how damage works and has no idea what he's talking about. When I get back home ill explain why.

Just eyeballing it
Charged shell on raths head does the same damage as doing a charged shell on raths wing, no idea why you think otherwise.
Your combo ideas are wrong, he'll your whole max damage output for gunlance is completely wrong. Shellings are never EVER the main damage of a gunlance, why you seem to think so baffles me.
Your damage formula is some random bullshit you came up with. You clearly have no idea how it works. No weapon listed? No monster listed? No hitzone listed? Ahahaha fail more.
You're quoting DCJ? Sorry honey but there are definitely ways to maximize damage, which you're clearly unaware of.

Tl;dr I'll rip you'd post to shreds in the next post, learn what you're talking about before trying to state your (flawed) opinions as facts.
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haruno
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:55 am

@Hawkfriend wrote:
IMO Haruno would be correct if you could get a monster perfectly still forever and you had infinite ammo (meaning no reload).

unfortunately, neither of these things *really* happen. The normal shot burst is still good as *burst* damage. kind of like greatsword (though not near that much damage). you want to time it to hit and deal massive damage one ONE HIT, preferably on a weakspot (like I said, much like greatsword).
Shitty analysis. If someone has enough time to forward poke => upswing => slam => fullburst, they definitely have enough time to dash => upswing => poke => poke => charge/shell.

Please learn to make proper analogies, greatsword and gunlance are two entirely different weapons and have entirely different playstyles. Greatswords aim for making the most out of attack oppurtunities to put in a charge while gunlances are constantly on the offensive. Gunlances do not do this "massive" damage in one hit.

@Hawkfriend wrote:

look at it this way. full slam takes a similar amount of time to double charge shell. (wide charge requires shield and one move before charging, then the actual charge time X2; Full burst requires three moves, but no charge; both moves completely empty clip). say I can tell by Rathalos's (random off the top of my head) body language that he is going to tail spin and put his head nearby. I time an overhead swing, and release the full burst in his face. or say I am using wide shells and I want to use charge shots. I time it and the first one hits him in the head. to use the second one I have to wait for the charge time and he has already moved, so the blast hits his wing instead, dealing significantly less damage.
I don't even know how to respond to this. You are never ever double charged shell, if that's what you're doing then you're doing it wrong. Shelling is only used to extend combos and not as a primary damage dealer. In the time it takes you to recover from forward poke => upswing => slam => full burst, you can easily dash => stab => stab => upswing => charged shell => continue combo. Your rathalos example straight out sucks. You didn't even get the proper combo right. You cannot overhead swing into a full burst, you have to slam, and a slam is done off of a upswing or two pokes. Get rid of your shelling = main source of damage mentality and you might start to make sense. A charged shell will do the same amount of damage on rathalos' wing as it would the head, the fact that you think otherwise shows your lack of knowledge of the gunlance.

@Hawkfriend wrote:

with wide charges you get:
1x upward stab + 2x charge shell
with long combos you can get:
8x regular stab + 3 regular shells + 1x Upswing
with normal bursts you get:
2x regular stab + 1x overhead swing + 1x full burst


--for basic combo on all three (just taking raw into it)(raw in parentheses is weapon raw):
wide: 6x stab + 2x shell + upswing = 6(.24)(raw) + 2(57) + (~.3)(raw) = 1.74(raw) + 114
long: 8x stab + 3x shell + upswing = 8(.24)(raw) + 3(43) + (~.3)(raw) = 2.22(raw) + 129
normal: 12x stab + 5x shell + upswing = 12(.24)(raw) + 5(28) + (~.3)(raw) = 3.18 + 140
((^Very crude damage formula))
then to divide by number of attacks (including reload because it takes time):
wide: .193(raw) + 12.67
long: .17(raw) + 9.9
normal: .167(raw) + 7.36
((^also very crude because different attacks take different amounts of time))
No idea what you're talking about. Gunlance do the most damage with dash => poke => poke => upswing => charge/shell => rinse repeat since shells renew your gl combo. This is the same for all gunlance types.

Your damage formula doesn't even make any damn sense, it looks like some random numbers that you just pulled out of your butt or something.

@Hawkfriend wrote:

so you can see here that wide is very powerful overall, it just requires more reloading.
long reaches farther, and the wyvern fire gets 1.2 damage (I think its that much).
normal does good burst damage (and a multiplier on that burst btw), and has a large clip size for less reloading and longer combos.

In the end, its really all about the way you play. As dcj is constantly reminding us, you can make up for low damage weapons, you can't make up for ugly ones.



I'm tired, so a lot of this logic might not connect, and I may have left stuff out. I'm not even going to hope that any of this makes grammatical sense. That being said, I hope you get the picture. the three shell types are good for different things, so you should pick a GL based on which of those styles you want + the element + the raw/sharpness.

have a nice day.
No idea what you were trying to show since your numbers were all wrong and the fact that you think long gunlances have errr a longer reach shows how little you know. Normal gunlances do not do good damage with shells, not to mention your options for normal gunlances blow, ontop of burning your sharpness faster than any other type of gunlance for less damage. You're essentially using more sharpness for less damage just by using normal.

Don't quote dcj, you have no idea what that quote even means. There are definitely ways where one weapon will outdamage another in similar circumstances. Not to mention wide gunlances have the majority of the good looking gunlances which dcj would agree with considering he used a lightning works avy for a good few months or so.

Your logic doesn't connect? There was no logic in the first place. If you're going to make arguments at least know what you're talking about.
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PostSubject: Re: Artillery skill worth it?   Today at 8:57 am

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